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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Detail does beg question.


"Forensic and Traffic expert's evidence"


Even the lowest level of expertise in the 4x4 crowd know that a disco can't safely travel at speed on a muddy lane, let alone safely chase a trailbike that are capable of traveling faster at a safe speed.

There's also outstanding DMMO's within close vicinity of Sunwood farm and tracks used for public access (documented at local authority level) that aren't recorded on the DM.

It's possible that the incident occured on one of these public roads but was missed due to not engaging ROW experts in the investigation.

If the locations of all the lanes that Mr Wolfe used to chase and frighten the trailbikers are made available this can be checked.

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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Ive had a look at the area around the farm and I note that there are two boats that run through the apparant land covered by the farm.

Image

Both BOATs 44 and 47 are shown with no restrictions on the local definitive map...

Image

Boat 44 being the Forty Acre Lane with it's full length on Google Street view with the camera car having driven along it!

and BOAT 47 that starts right oppersite the entry to Sunwood Farm next to Sunwood Cottage..

Image


As has been commented the signage in the area is poor and I mistakenly thought this was the North end of BOAT 47 but thanks to local knowlage it's a track made by 4x4 from a play area in the woods...Image

Here is the correct North entry to BOAT 47..
and has a sign post..
Image

and the South end seems overgrown and unused as if the lane has been blocked somewhere along it's length..

Image

If this is an indication of the poor signage then I can understand how riders get lost.. the sat images also show that if the lane is blocked somewhere in the woods then the users might very well end up in the field to the North and West of Sunwood Cottage trying to find a route out... :?

But please read the post further down from a rider who has used this lane and has comented on the possible confusing layout and ability to exit onto a field by mistake...

I have to visit Trevor Pope soon so I might well have a ride of the area..
(With the helmet camera running...)
I'd be interested in comments from any local riders..

Mindful that the sat images shows more than one discovery parked at Sunwood Farm... :?

Image

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Last edited by ANDY.T on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:45 pm 
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From a previous post on another forum

ANDY.T wrote:
Posted: 29-02-12 1:27pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm.. interesting judgement.

Here there are 5 trail riders that I presume have given evidence... v one irate farmer trying to catch up with a group of trail riders in slippery conditions.

The mere fact that the farmer had tried to catch up with the trail bikes raises some questions..

We all know that safe driving on mud is far far slower than safe riding of a trail bike in the same conditions...

A trail bike is safe when travelling at 15-20mph on un surfaced roads.. but a 4x4 is safe at close to walking pace...

The simple fact that the 4x4 collided with a trail bike and overturned is testament that it was travelling too fast for the conditions.

A farmer with apparently years of experience with use of vehicles in such conditions should have demonstrated due care and attention.. he did not and the circumstances surrounding this incident show that the farmer was trying to catch upto and tell off trail riders.

Had this been on any normal road the fact that a member of the public was chasing to catch up to and tell off then had an accident and killed a person he was chasing would be enough for death by reckless driving.

Maybe the CPS went for the wrong charge/offence and should have stuck with death by reckless driving.

Maybe the driver is a Mason.. whatever the true circumstances it is surprising in the fact that the driver seems to have got off without any punishment via the courts.

One would have thought that after 10 years of “LOST” trail riders then proper signage would have been provided. If the police failed to find anyone in 10 years doing anything wrong it does rather raise the issue of what exactly are the legal rights in this area..


ANDY.T wrote:
Posted: 29-02-12 6:02pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK then lets approach this in a different way...

Farmer was driving in the same manner but when he rounded the corner on the track there was a bunch of walkers on the track and he reacted in the same way, clipped one and turned the vehicle over onto the other...

It would be reasonable to say that he was reckless in that he was not driving to the prevailing conditions and could not stop or take avoiding action safely..

Would one then take the view that the drivers actions were reckless?


As it stands then..if you are walking, riding, driving on a farm then the farmer can drive like an idiot and run you down without fear of prosecution?

Either no offence has been comitted or there has been an injustice...

Becuase there is a stated and admitted fact that the farmer was trying to chase , stop and remonstrate with the trail riders there is an element of intention to do something. That something was to catch up with and stop the trail riders..

In doing so the farmer exceeded a state of reasonable driving for the conditions and had an accident and killed one and injured another...

CPS Quote:

Wanton and furious driving

33.We will only prosecute for this offence when it is not possible to prosecute for an offence under the road traffic legislation, for example:
when the driving was not on a road or other public place;
when the vehicle used was not a mechanically propelled vehicle (such as a bicycle or horse drawn vehicle).

34.When a vehicle has been deliberately used as a weapon and has caused injury, we will normally prosecute for the offence of dangerous driving, or a specific assault under other provisions in the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, subject to there being sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction for one of those offences.


Causing death by dangerous or careless driving

21.It is not a requirement of Section 1, Section 2B (see note 16) or Section 3A of the Road Traffic Act 1988, that the prosecution proves that the death was foreseeable. The prosecution only needs to prove that the vehicle was driven dangerously or carelessly and that the driving was the cause of the death of another person. The essential qualitative difference between the offences therefore depends on the standard of driving.

22.Both offences are objective in the sense that the defendant's state of mind is not normally a relevant consideration in determining whether the defendant drove dangerously or carelessly. The fact that a defendant genuinely believed that in the circumstances his or her driving was not dangerous is irrelevant.

23.Both offences require the driver to depart from the standard of a competent and careful driver, but the key difference between the offences is the extent to which the driving falls below the required standard:
to be dangerous, the driving must fall 'far below' the required standard;
to be careless, the driving need only fall 'below' the required standard.

Unlawful act manslaughter

6.It must be proved that:
the defendant's act caused the death of the victim;
the defendant's act constituted a criminal offence in itself;
the defendant had the mens rea appropriate to the unlawful act which caused the victim's death; and
the defendant's unlawful act is objectively recognised as having put the victim at risk of some physical harm, albeit not necessarily serious harm.

7.Unlawful act manslaughter will be considered the most appropriate charge when there is evidence to prove that a vehicle was used as an instrument of attack (but where the necessary intent for murder was absent), or to cause fright, and death resulted.

8.Unlawful act manslaughter can occur in a variety of ways. For example, a driver may deliberately drive at a person or group of people with the intention of causing them to fear being struck by the vehicle. The driver may not actually intend to hit them with the car, but if he/she does so and someone is killed as a result, he/she may be guilty of unlawful act manslaughter. If someone is injured, the defendant may be prosecuted for an assault.

9.There is a difference between these cases and bad driving cases where a death has occurred as a result of driving that is unlawful only because of the negligent manner of its performance (see note 15).

10.In cases where a death has occurred as a result of bad driving and it is clear that the standard of driving has been grossly negligent on the part of the driver, a charge of gross negligence manslaughter may be the correct charge, as explained below.

Gross negligence manslaughter
11.To prove a charge based on gross negligence manslaughter, the prosecution must show that the defendant owed the victim a duty of care; that the driving caused the victim's death; that the driving fell far below the minimum acceptable standard of driving; that there was an obvious and serious risk of death; and that the conduct of the defendant can, in all the circumstances, be described as 'reprehensible'.
12.Some sections of the public consider that we should often charge gross negligence manslaughter instead of causing death by dangerous driving.
13.There are two arguments put forward to support this view:
first, that the public is now increasingly less tolerant of bad driving and convictions for gross negligence manslaughter may be more likely;
secondly, because manslaughter carries a higher maximum penalty, it better reflects the gravity of the offence.
14.However, the position is not straightforward. Prosecutors may have one or more statutory offences available to them (causing death by dangerous driving and causing death by careless driving whilst unfit through drink or drugs) in cases where there has been a fatal collision caused by bad driving. Before a charge of gross negligence manslaughter will be preferred, there must be something to set the case apart from one where one of the statutory offences can be proved.
15.As a matter of law, it is more difficult to prove an offence of gross negligence manslaughter than it is to prove an offence of causing death by dangerous driving. It is not necessary to have evidence of an obvious and serious risk of death to prove an offence of causing death by dangerous driving. All that is required is evidence that the driving was dangerous and that the driving caused the death of another person.
16.Whilst it is correct that the offence of manslaughter carries the possibility of a more severe sentence than an offence of causing death by dangerous driving, the courts have, over the years, generally passed sentences well within - sometimes significantly below - the maximum sentence available for causing death by dangerous driving.
17.We will, therefore, only charge gross negligence manslaughter in cases where there is evidence to show a very high risk of death, making the case one of the utmost gravity.
18.Under the provisions of Section 33 of the Road Safety Act 2006, juries are now able to return alternative verdicts for offences of causing death by dangerous driving, dangerous driving, causing death by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs and furious driving where they are not satisfied that the prosecution has made out its case for manslaughter. This has not previously been the case.
19.This alternative verdict provision provides something of a safety net for the prosecution, but there must still be sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction of manslaughter and it must still be the most appropriate charge, before a decision to charge manslaughter will be made.
20.In most cases where a death occurs as a result of dangerous driving, the statutory offence of causing death by dangerous driving will remain the correct charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:37 pm 
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Dont you think it strange that there is not any real comment about this in the National Press ( Unless i've missed it)

Generally speaking farmers are not that popular as a group of people. They get subsidies, leave mud on the road, are a law unto themselves, not least on the roads, always claiming the Supermarkets are beggaring them.........yet not one headline have i seen

So the Sh!t list must be something like this


Tax inspector
Politician
Bank manager
Traveller
Trail Rider.

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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:03 pm 
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This account just appeared on the KTM forum

we had been riding along a tarmac road stopped at a 30yard gap in the hedge row no gate,looked across his field and we could see a chalk lane at the other end of his field,we stayed single file down the side of his field all the way to the end and there was the chalk lane but there was a barbed wire fence at the end.so we all turned around and headed back to the road,on are way back i looked across the field and there he was flat out after us,not just driving over to us but fast very fast so we are leaving his field so lets keep going,last looked at my speed and iam doing 64mph and clicking in to 5th or 6th gear looked back and his 25,30yards behind me,i thought if i stop or come of his going to run me over.i got to the road with my friends now behind me i led them down the road hoping the farmer would now back of now we was of his land,but no he kept coming god knows what speeds we were doing on the road and he is still tight to my friends,so i thought ok if he is that fast on the dirt then for sure his faster on tarmac so i led my friends back down a chalky lane hoping to shake him of,we didnt know at the time but this is back on to his land,a straight lane of about 200yards with a sharp left turn,i checked behind me and my four friend were still behind me approx 20 yards and the farmer was also behind them.i took the left turn and as my friends braked for the turn the farmer kept it flat out,he new if we all made the turn we would get away coz the lane narrows tight.


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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:30 am 
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Still difficult to work out how and where it all happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Not anywhere shown on the post above.. I was just commenting that there are legal BOATs still open for use according to the local Definitive Map (at this time) that run right next to the farm concerned.... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:38 pm 
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I can't believe that this farmer has been allowed to get away scot free. Reading the post from AndyT, I "unlawful manslaughter" was what he should have been found guilty of. But apparently because of a very poor prosecution he has got away with it. I don't understand, there is no doubt he killed the guy, whether he had an underlying chest problem is surely irrelevent, a Landrover on anyones chest is not good for them! He didn't crawl under it and pull it down on himself did he? Maybe the police should now be persuaded he be charged with " Gross negligence manslaughter". At very least he will be found guilty of death by dangerous driving even if the prosecution is rubbish again.

In the news very recently a biker accidently killed a young girl on the road. I don't know the circumtances of this case either, but I doubt very much he woke up that day intending to kill a small girl, I also doubt very much he was intending to "frighten" her. I have no idea if he was overtaking or speeding or whether she turned back into the road or anything. I do know she was not on a crossing, but I also doubt very much HE will be alowed to get away scot free.

Does anyone know who I write to, to tell them I am ashamed of our justice system for such a blatant miscarriage? I guess there's my MP again, not that he seems to do anything much. But I am willing to try. I am sure this farmer didn't wake up intending to kill someone, however he has killed someone by his own reckless and unecessary actions. I want to see justice metered out evenhandedly. Do we need a petition? Does it do any good? Do we need some sort of demonstation? What CAN I do?


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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:29 pm 
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^^^

The reason the charge of causing death by dangerous driving was introduced was because jury's have historically been reluctant to convict on manslaughter.

However this is a crime under the road traffic act which the CPS didn't pursue, apparently they considered the chase to have taken part entirely on private land, part of the chase occured on a tarmac road leading to a school to which there's unrestricted public access. This meets the definition of "public place" for the purposes of the road traffic act.

The RTA was extended to cover "public places" in order to protect the public.

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 Post subject: Re: Farmer on trial
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:54 pm 
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So why can he not be tried for gross negligent manslaughter? He may not have been on a "road" but if you run over someone in a supermarket carpark, that's still private land with public access. So presumably you would be done for dangerous driving. As I understand it there were no gates these guys went through, so where ever they were had "public access".
This seems ridiculous, I can not think of any other situation in this country where you can actively chase someone, kill them, and then be let off?


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